[personal profile] maystone
Because you can't do spoiler cuts on freakin' FaceBook. I'm just going to paste something I wrote to my brother earlier. He thought the Rick/Joe ending was unrealistic. So my response follows. Feel free to jump in and comment. And I hope I do this right. It's been years since I've done a cut.

You're not looking at it from the story perspective, baby bro. The set up was Carl asking Rick about Terminus: "Are we going to tell them?" Then he goes on to clarify (paraphrasing maybe) "Are we going to tell them what happened to us? What we did?" Then "Are we going to tell them who we are?" And then: "Who are we?" The big question is who are we now? What have we become? Rick and Carl have both been struggling with that this season, although not directly with each other. Have they become as monstrous as the monsters they've been fighting since the plague started? When Rick tore out Joe's jugular, he was answering yes, they had. But they had to in order to survive, and in the end he accepts that fully. He will do anything to protect his loved ones, no matter how monstrous.

I thought that whole sequence with Joe's gang was completely horrifying. I couldn't believe that the show was taking it that far, and for a moment or two I thought that Carl was actually going to be raped. But it really raised the stakes for the story and really, really provided the impetus for Rick to stop clinging to his illusions about creating a safe, separate reality.

Eugene (the nerd with the mullet) doesn't strike me as being any good in a fight, but you may be on to something about him coming up with some ad-hoc weapons. I think Rick knew they were outgunned pretty early on. I also think they didn't want to split up the group again, and that's why they didn't leave Daryl outside. Besides he's just one guy - what was he supposed to do?

I was thrown off for the last 10 minutes because I kept expecting a few of the group to die. Again, it was the hype that led so many of us to that conclusion, so we were all watching the clock and trying to figure out how all of that was all going down in the time that was left. It wasn't the fault of the script; the PR people screwed up. Still, I'm really glad that no one did die. Although for a few minutes I was convinced that Bob and Glenn and Maggie were dead when I saw the bad guys wearing their clothes. I was on Twitter with my friend Jenn in MA and we were going nuts. OMG those are Bob's pants! OMG they're all dead. OMGOMGOMG! Heh. Twitter is fun.

Anyway, I wish they would reshow the finale next week. I completely missed the point of the flashbacks. In fact, I didn't even get that they were flashbacks. In my mind, I was watching the hallucinations of a dying Rick, and Hershel was telling him to put down his guns because you don't need guns in heaven :) As I said - completely missed the point.

OK, back to you. Do you agree with any of this?

My Two Bits

2014-04-01 01:20 (UTC)
by [identity profile] travestine.livejournal.com
Do you watch Talking Dead? Andrew Lincoln had some interesting things to say about Rick's progression over the past four seasons.

I think it took something as extreme as Carl's near-rape to get Rick to 'cross over' to the level of violence it took to rip out Joe's throat, but I think it also brought him back to who he truly is in the post-apocalypse. Farmer Rick never seemed to sit comfortably on his bones, if you get what I mean. Even Carl didn't really trust that version of his dad - and he didn't respect him either. Probably because he suspected that he wasn't being true to himself.

I figured that the flashbacks were meant to show how Rick became a farmer in the prison and how he was transitioning back and beyond for the next phase of their survival. We never did see how his gun ended up in the dirt. It was just - all of a sudden, they had crops and pigs (although I didn't see a horse - Herschel said there were wild horses), and Rick was in charge of the agriculture. The flashbacks showed Herschel seducing/convincing Rick to give up the more violent side and 'go back to the land'. Perhaps Herschel saw his pre-AA self in Rick and was trying to mentor him. Either way, it was good to see him last night. They talked a lot on TD about how much the cast loved having him back.

I was seriously afraid of two things at the end: one, that at least Glenn was dead out of the other group, because the writers made a point of Herschel saying he gave Glenn his watch; and two, that Carl was going to be either wounded or killed before he made it to the boxcar. One big question: when the group was running, it looked like they passed a tarp full of chunks of meat - did anyone else notice that? I'm seriously wondering where all the other people who would have shown up at Terminus are. Didn't it seem awfully deserted? And what's with the candles and all the names written on the floor?

Re: My Two Bits

2014-04-01 02:15 (UTC)
by [identity profile] maystone.livejournal.com
Yup, I saw the meat. If they end up not being cannibals, a lot of fans are going to be shocked. I think the candles are all memorials; they all had names written by them. Past meals? The first thing I thought of was that the candles were made from the fat of the victims themselves. Otherwise one of the Terminus guys has stumbled across a candle warehouse somewhere.

I watch Talking Dead religiously. I'd seen Andrew Lincoln in taped segments, so I knew he was gracious; I never got how funny he was until TD though. He kept cracking me up.

I really have to rewatch the finale so I can pick up on the Hershel stuff. Oh, they did have horses. Michonne had one, remember, and I saw another one in the background early in the season during one of the farming segments.

Re: My Two Bits

2014-04-07 23:40 (UTC)
by [identity profile] bringbackzack.livejournal.com
I haven't used Live Journal much, and so, if I screw up, please forgive me :-)

Those chunks of meat appeared to be human remains. If you blow it up, you can make out spinal cords and human skulls. This seemed to somewhat support the cannibalism theory. However, a screenshot from a deleted scene was posted after the finale that showed Rick and Co. locked in a room (or possibly one of those train cars) with walkers chained to the walls. There were similar piles of meat on the floor. This could imply they are feeding people to walkers (and, don't ask me why they would do that. I couldn't even begin to answer that).

As for the room with candles, I think Kirkman said that was supposed to be a memorial room, and so, the names on the floor are probably names of people that they have lost. On the wall was also written, "Never again. Never trust. We first, always". This makes it sound like something horrible happened to these people, and this could explain why they are the way they are today.

BTW, Lee, this is Mary Powers :-)
edited 2014-04-08 00:00 (UTC)

2014-04-01 01:38 (UTC)
by [identity profile] sffan.livejournal.com
Once again, I wonder about myself when I can sit here and say that I 100% approve of bad-ass, scary motherfucker Rick. I understand what Herschel was trying to do and trying to say and I know it is the better path, but good God morally conflicted Rick was dull as shit and annoying.

The scenes with Joe's crew were absolutely brutal and I was sitting here going "they're not going to rape a kid on TV are they? NO FUCKING WAY." And maybe it's the psychopath in me (I'm joking, kinda...) but I was definitely "GO RICK" when he was (over-killing) the would-be rapist.

There is a part of me that's really hoping Carol shows up and saves them all, just 'CAUSE, dammit.

2014-04-01 02:37 (UTC)
by [identity profile] maystone.livejournal.com
See, I never found morally-conflicted Rick to be boring. Annoying? Hell yes. But they've been showing this dark side since he killed Shane. I was really taken by how he started yelling at Shane's corpse, "This is you! This isn't me! This is on you!" He was rationalizing it to himself immediately. And later he blamed it on Lori, of course. He beat the shit out Tyreese (and rightfully so), and he went waaaay the hell overboard in his reaction to Carol. Now that's the reunion I want to see. I want him to see that it was Carol who kept Judith alive, and it was Carol who did the unimaginably hard thing of killing Lizzie - because it had to be done. I think Rick bansihed Carol because she scared the hell out of him by reflecting back to him the brutal reality he was hiding from.

So yes - I really, really, really want Carol to save his ass. I cannot see her just walking into Terminus, either.

I was horrified by Joe and his gang, and I felt guilty as hell for kind of liking him earlier. I thought they (the Marauders) were mostly talk. Like you, I was thinking "holy shit, they're really going to rape Carl!" That was a terrible few minutes to watch. I imagine it was no fun for Chandler Riggs to film, either. And what are the consequences going to be for that? if anything, I think that Carl is more of a badass than Rick is by a factor of 10. The looks he and Rick were exchanging near the end there - absolutely chilling. Like they both knew they were going to rain destruction down on those Terminus assholes just given the chance.

Hey, I don't consider myself to be particularly bloodthirsty, but I was cheering on Rick, too. Now I have to wait for October, and that is going to be very, very hard to do.

2014-04-01 09:00 (UTC)
by [identity profile] travestine.livejournal.com
What I really loved about AL on TD was how deeply he thinks about his character, the storylines and the WD world. He is sooo into it. I think it's great that he (and I imagine the others) are so into their characters - who they are, the changes they are going through, how the changes in their world are affecting them and their relationships.

I think Rick banished Carol because he saw in Carol what he didn't want to face about the world they are living in - the part that had to do the impossibly difficult things that had to be done for the greater good. I really didn't like the Rick that thought he had the moral imperative to banish Carol without consulting the Council - he wasn't even ON the Council. It wasn't his call. And Carol did the right thing. She was trying to stop a contagion that was turning people INSIDE THE PRISON into walkers. They were going to die and they were infecting people - it was a tough call and she had to make it. Just like with Lizzie - in the post zombie apocalypse, you have to think of the greater good. Shane wasn't going to last either. He was always going to challenge Rick at some point. He fundamentally disagreed with Rick over everything - his family, his leadership, the baby. It was bound to happen eventually. He was a danger not only to Rick, but to the others.

I thought Daryl was a bit disingenuous when he told Rick that he didn't know what they were capable of. He'd seen whathisname's body after they beat him to death for putting the second half of the rabbit in Daryl's bag and trying to call him out for stealing, so he knew that they were capable of extreme violence. I want to know where Beth is - I hope she turns up. She finally came into her own as a character, so it would suck if they pulled a Sophia on her.

October is a loooong way away ....

2014-04-01 11:00 (UTC)
by [identity profile] maystone.livejournal.com
I can see where Daryl was coming from, though. He was brought up with that kind of casual violence. Remember the story he told Beth about almost getting killed by the meth-head? And the scars on his back from his dad beating the crap out of him? Before he hooked up with Rick, that was what he would consider normal: someone crosses you, you take him down. But these guys weren't just mean; they were depraved. I don't believe Daryl saw that in them until it was too late.

2014-04-02 11:04 (UTC)
by [identity profile] budclare.livejournal.com
And Carol did the right thing. She was trying to stop a contagion that was turning people INSIDE THE PRISON into walkers.

Carol killed them after they were quarantined, after the damage had already been done. And even if you handwave that away, she still got the girl with the limp and the boy with the recently dislocated shoulder killed for no good reason. They did not need to "pull their own weight" right that minute or in that particular way. They have people more able-bodied than those two who pull their weight in ways other than making supply runs.

Carol panicked, period. She had the lives of two girls roughly Sophia's age dropped in her lap, and she panicked and overreacted at the first sign of trouble. Prior to inheriting the girls, she was making tough but sensible decisions. Her first few decisions afterward were tough but with only a veneer of logic...which is why that kind of panic is so hideously dangerous.

And Rick's banning her would have been unfair...had she cared in the slightest that she caused the deaths of two injured teenagers. I still don't entirely approve because everyone does stupid things when they're panicking; the ideal solution is to keep them out of trouble until you can talk them down. But Rick had no experience with that kind of panic, so he didn't understand what was happening. He could have handled it better, but his solution wasn't completely irrational (despite the fact that he was pissed at the time), unlike killing people in quarantine.

(As an aside, I love the subtlety of what they did with Carol's behavior...but that just throws into sharp relief how shitty the writers are most of the time. Crusading Survivalist Carol didn't bother patching up the holes in their evacuation plan, like establishing rendezvous points, or track down latex gloves, surgical masks, and hand sanitizer so they'd be ready for the inevitable epidemic? (The gloves and, I assume, the hand sanitizer would have expiration dates, but they shouldn't be that far out already.) I guess the writers think she's too badass to solve any problems that don't involve killing someone?)

As for Daryl, he had no way to know they were rapists beyond the ominous implications of "claiming", which I can mostly forgive him missing.

2014-04-03 00:28 (UTC)
by [identity profile] travestine.livejournal.com
There was no way they were going to survive - they had no drugs that could respond to that kind of sickness, they were clearly getting sicker and they all knew that when people died, they turned. Did Carole act too quickly? Maybe. But Carole made a lot of tough calls that others wouldn't make - like teaching kids to survive instead of reading them happy puppy stories. She wasn't panicking - nothing indicated panic in her behavour. Clearly, whatever the contagion was - it was spreading. She was trying to contain it. What characters are you talking about that she 'got killed'?

Rick still didn't have the right to make that call - he was Farmer Rick at the time - he had no power in the prison. He wasn't on the council. He acted entirely arbitrarily. For all he knew, he was killing Carole just as he thought Carole had killed Karen and David - without consulting anyone. He was no different than she was.

How was Carole responsible for preparing for an entire epidemic on her own? There were still quite a few people (many already coughing and wheezing) in the prison at the time. As I recall, she had quite a bit on her hands, what with cooking for the prison, babysitting all the kids, preparing the 'hospital ward', etc.

Nice rape-apology. Daryl had a pretty good sense how bad they were. No, he didn't know at least one was a rapist, but once they spotted Rick, he knew what they were capable of. BTW, you're pretty quick to forgive the men on this program, but not the women? Just sayin' ...

If you think the writing is so shitty, why are you watching? A lot of us (12 million+ in the States watched the finale) happen to think the writing is mostly pretty spot on.

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